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rustingbridges:

a few years back zinc acetate lozenges were doing the rounds and I love a good superstition so I went ahead and incorporated that into my belief system. been a while so I thought I’d check to see if the state of the science on the subject had shifted since then

afaict there hasn’t been much work on the subject in the intervening time, and nothing much to change your mind one way or the other. good work everyone, you may return to your superstition behavior.

some details:

  • one study¹ recently reported a null result, but based on the going theory for zinc lozenges that’s what you would expect (zinc acetate was administered by capsules). also the study was lacking in other ways.
  • another² has a good looking graph and is maybe positive for the concept. haven’t read the fully study yet

that’s maybe about it? my method for researching this research was to search pubmed for “(zinc) AND ((acetate) OR (gluconate)) lozenge” plus some other words instead of lozenge, as there were too many results without an additional keyword for filtering. I am sure there are other places results are published besides pubmed. feel free to catapult relevant studies into my inbox

robustcornhusk:

a graph of cold duration in people treated with zinc lozenges vs placebo. notably, the longest colds in the placebo group were 19 days, versus "only" 12 days in the lozenge group.

i assume this is the promising-looking graph in question

you know, i don’t love the idea that colds get dragged out that long. 19 days? some poor assholes get colds for 19 days?

rustingbridges:

yeah that sounds fucked up! had no idea that was the case for some people, I always thought of a cold as a 1-3 day kind of thing. but presumably if someone gets 20 day colds they’re probably very glad to cut a week off that

brin-bellway:

The third week of a cold sucks a lot less than the first week so, like, maybe only as much as a normal person’s cold, but yeah if there’s a pill for cutting that third week off, I’m interested regardless of whether it helps with the main brunt of the cold. Gonna have to look into this.

rustingbridges:

the basic tenets of the going theory are this:

  • you want zinc acetate, or if that’s not available, zinc gluconate. it has to be a lozenge or otherwise dissolve in your mouth, since the theoretical method of action is coating some tissue or receptor or something with ionic zinc. preferably with as few additives as possible. if it doesn’t taste bad and feel astringent, it’s not working. in the US everyone buys the life extension ones. idk about elsewhere
  • it is ideal to start as soon as possible. preferably in the not-sure-if-im-actually-sick-yet phase. starting once the infection is well developed seems to be much less effective
  • tbh I will actually take one prophylactically if I feel like I was in a high exposure environment. this is a not the protocol the research was done on but it seems reasonable and as long I don’t do this every day it is at worst a bad tasting zinc supplement
  • iirc the studies mostly had a protocol along the lines of one lozenge (of varying size and type?) every 1.5-2 hours while awake until symptoms subside. that’s a lot. it seems to produce some effect in the studies. I do not know that anyone has done any real study on taking more or less to compare, so it’s unclear what the optimal amount is, or how long it is worthwhile to persist in taking them

brin-bellway:

…well, I tried a Life Extension zinc-acetate lozenge (not to be confused with a Life Extension zinc-oxide/gluconate + citric acid lozenge, which I previously got by accident and which are much wimpier), and, uh, that was kind of scary.

I *didn’t even get a full dose*! I ended up running out of time before bed and having to spit two-thirds of it out! And it *still* took about *17 hours* for my sense of taste to stop being blunted!

(my sense of smell still worked, FTR, so I’m *probably* not just leaving a proverbial bad Yankee Candle review)

…I’ll *consider* giving it one more try the next time I’m *confident* I’m sick, but I cannot do this at-first-sign-of-illness when my first-sign-of-illness has a 99%+ false-positive rate.

rustingbridges:

yeah that sounds like a bad reaction, don’t think I’d bother with that either

from a single lozenge I do notice astringency but the effects on taste are minor. I hardly notice them, I don’t mind them much when I do, and they last at most a few hours if that

brighterflowers:

oh yeah my dad always made e take these when I was a kid and they messed up my sense of taste for days, I’d always rather have just had the cold

… and child-me would still get, like, 2-3 week colds! I think bc I usually wasn’t allowed to stay home if I was sick

keynes-fetlife-mutual:

For me, TheraZinc lozenges pretty consistently stop colds if I start using them as soon as I notice a sore throat (haven’t tried Life Extension, have tried Cold-Eeze and they were bullshit.) they do indeed fuck up my sense of taste for days, and that’s a decent tradeoff for me because my colds have a tendency to turn into bronchitis. but it’s hard for me to voluntarily inflict that much unpleasantness on myself >_< so sometimes I don’t.

Yeah, the “as soon as I notice a sore throat” aspect is probably the main hurdle here. This could maybe have been a very valuable antidepressant for, like, 2015!me, but these days…well, these were some of my tags on that recent reblog:

#P.S. I started wondering whether my health-log data supported my 99%+ estimate, #so I did some ctrl-F and wow‚ I have non-contagious sore throats *even more* often than I thought, #I had a noticeable amount of non-contagious throat soreness on *86 days* out of 2023-so-far, #plus one contagious sore throat spanning two days‚ slightly under 24 hours total (before moving on to different cold symptoms), #but bear in mind that in the period 2020 – 2022 inclusive‚ *every* sore throat was non-contagious, #so yeah‚ lately I *have* had >100 sore throats that don’t lead anywhere for each one that develops into a cold

(the current ratio is *mostly* because I have other forms of throat irritation way more often now, but partly because I have fewer colds thanks to more other layers in my security I’m literally writing this while wearing a P100 because my sick housemate was recently puttering about in our kitchen completely bare-faced like an asshole)

I have a really hard time doing QALY analyses on myself because my brain’s response to being queried on how much lifespan it would give up in exchange for not experiencing X suffering is “we do not negotiate with terrorists”, but ‘hypogeusia is more than 1% as bad as severe depression’ seems like a very plausible statement to me.


Tags:

#reply via reblog #the power of science #is the blue I see the same as the blue you see #illness tw #death tw? #venting cw? #he *has* at least been refraining from hanging out in the living room or in our parents’ room #and *sometimes* he wears a KF94 (unsealed‚ but he might not *know* how to seal a mask around facial hair) when he’s fetching food/water #I don’t know why he’s landed on ”sometimes” and I don’t dare ask

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rustingbridges:

a few years back zinc acetate lozenges were doing the rounds and I love a good superstition so I went ahead and incorporated that into my belief system. been a while so I thought I’d check to see if the state of the science on the subject had shifted since then

afaict there hasn’t been much work on the subject in the intervening time, and nothing much to change your mind one way or the other. good work everyone, you may return to your superstition behavior.

some details:

  • one study¹ recently reported a null result, but based on the going theory for zinc lozenges that’s what you would expect (zinc acetate was administered by capsules). also the study was lacking in other ways.
  • another² has a good looking graph and is maybe positive for the concept. haven’t read the fully study yet

that’s maybe about it? my method for researching this research was to search pubmed for “(zinc) AND ((acetate) OR (gluconate)) lozenge” plus some other words instead of lozenge, as there were too many results without an additional keyword for filtering. I am sure there are other places results are published besides pubmed. feel free to catapult relevant studies into my inbox

robustcornhusk:

a graph of cold duration in people treated with zinc lozenges vs placebo. notably, the longest colds in the placebo group were 19 days, versus "only" 12 days in the lozenge group.

i assume this is the promising-looking graph in question

you know, i don’t love the idea that colds get dragged out that long. 19 days? some poor assholes get colds for 19 days?

rustingbridges:

yeah that sounds fucked up! had no idea that was the case for some people, I always thought of a cold as a 1-3 day kind of thing. but presumably if someone gets 20 day colds they’re probably very glad to cut a week off that

brin-bellway:

The third week of a cold sucks a lot less than the first week so, like, maybe only as much as a normal person’s cold, but yeah if there’s a pill for cutting that third week off, I’m interested regardless of whether it helps with the main brunt of the cold. Gonna have to look into this.

rustingbridges:

the basic tenets of the going theory are this:

  • you want zinc acetate, or if that’s not available, zinc gluconate. it has to be a lozenge or otherwise dissolve in your mouth, since the theoretical method of action is coating some tissue or receptor or something with ionic zinc. preferably with as few additives as possible. if it doesn’t taste bad and feel astringent, it’s not working. in the US everyone buys the life extension ones. idk about elsewhere
  • it is ideal to start as soon as possible. preferably in the not-sure-if-im-actually-sick-yet phase. starting once the infection is well developed seems to be much less effective
  • tbh I will actually take one prophylactically if I feel like I was in a high exposure environment. this is a not the protocol the research was done on but it seems reasonable and as long I don’t do this every day it is at worst a bad tasting zinc supplement
  • iirc the studies mostly had a protocol along the lines of one lozenge (of varying size and type?) every 1.5-2 hours while awake until symptoms subside. that’s a lot. it seems to produce some effect in the studies. I do not know that anyone has done any real study on taking more or less to compare, so it’s unclear what the optimal amount is, or how long it is worthwhile to persist in taking them

…well, I tried a Life Extension zinc-acetate lozenge (not to be confused with a Life Extension zinc-oxide/gluconate + citric acid lozenge, which I previously got by accident and which are much wimpier), and, uh, that was kind of scary.

I *didn’t even get a full dose*! I ended up running out of time before bed and having to spit two-thirds of it out! And it *still* took about *17 hours* for my sense of taste to stop being blunted!

(my sense of smell still worked, FTR, so I’m *probably* not just leaving a proverbial bad Yankee Candle review)

…I’ll *consider* giving it one more try the next time I’m *confident* I’m sick, but I cannot do this at-first-sign-of-illness when my first-sign-of-illness has a 99%+ false-positive rate.


Tags:

#reply via reblog #oh look an update #illness tw #is the blue I see the same as the blue you see #I cannot find the post but I saw someone recently saying that the Yankee Candle Index looks bad again for this winter #(that is to say‚ Yankee Candle is experiencing another flood of negative reviews from #people who actually have sudden-onset anosmia but are blaming the lack of scent on poor candle quality) #P.S. I started wondering whether my health-log data supported my 99%+ estimate #so I did some ctrl-F and wow‚ I have non-contagious sore throats *even more* often than I thought #I had a noticeable amount of non-contagious throat soreness on *86 days* out of 2023-so-far #plus one contagious sore throat spanning two days‚ slightly under 24 hours total (before moving on to different cold symptoms) #but bear in mind that in the period 2020 – 2022 inclusive‚ *every* sore throat was non-contagious #so yeah‚ lately I *have* had >100 sore throats that don’t lead anywhere for each one that develops into a cold


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500 Million, But Not a Single One More

{{Title link: http://blog.jaibot.com/?p=413 }}

jaiwithanadult:

We will never know their names.

The first victim could not have been recorded, for there was no written language to record it. They were someone’s daughter, or son, and someone’s friend, and they were loved by those around them. And they were in pain, covered in rashes, confused, scared, not knowing why this was happening to them or what they could do about it – victim of a mad, inhuman god. There was nothing to be done – humanity was not strong enough, not aware enough, not knowledgeable enough, to fight back against a monster that could not be seen.

It was in Ancient Egypt, where it attacked slave and pharaoh alike. In Rome, it effortlessly decimated armies. It killed in Syria. It killed in Moscow.  In India, five million dead. It killed a thousand Europeans every day in the 18th century. It killed more than fifty million Native Americans. From the Peloponnesian War to the Civil War, it slew more soldiers and civilians than any weapon, any soldier, any army (Not that this stopped the most foolish and empty souls from attempting to harness the demon as a weapon against their enemies).

Cultures grew and faltered, and it remained. Empires rose and fell, and it thrived. Ideologies waxed and waned, but it did not care. Kill. Maim. Spread. An ancient, mad god, hidden from view, that could not be fought, could not be confronted, could not even be comprehended. Not the only one of its kind, but the most devastating.

For a long time, there was no hope – only the bitter, hollow endurance of survivors.

In China, in the 10th century, humanity began to fight back.

It was observed that survivors of the mad god’s curse would never be touched again: they had taken a portion of that power into themselves, and were so protected from it. Not only that, but this power could be shared by consuming a remnant of the wounds. There was a price, for you could not take the god’s power without first defeating it – but a smaller battle, on humanity’s terms. By the 16th century, the technique spread, to India, across Asia, the Ottoman Empire and, in the 18th century, Europe. In 1796, a more powerful technique was discovered by Edward Jenner.

An idea began to take hold: Perhaps the ancient god could be killed.

A whisper became a voice; a voice became a call; a call became a battle cry, sweeping across villages, cities, nations. Humanity began to cooperate, spreading the protective power across the globe, dispatching masters of the craft to protect whole populations. People who had once been sworn enemies joined in common cause for this one battle. Governments mandated that all citizens protect themselves, for giving the ancient enemy a single life would put millions in danger.

And, inch by inch, humanity drove its enemy back. Fewer friends wept; Fewer neighbors were crippled; Fewer parents had to bury their children.

At the dawn of the 20th century, for the first time, humanity banished the enemy from entire regions of the world. Humanity faltered many times in its efforts, but there individuals who never gave up, who fought for the dream of a world where no child or loved one would ever fear the demon ever again. Viktor Zhdanov, who called for humanity to unite in a final push against the demon; The great tactician Karel Raška, who conceived of a strategy to annihilate the enemy; Donald Henderson, who led the efforts of those final days.

The enemy grew weaker. Millions became thousands, thousands became dozens. And then, when the enemy did strike, scores of humans came forth to defy it, protecting all those whom it might endanger.

The enemy’s last attack in the wild was on Ali Maow Maalin, in 1977. For months afterwards, dedicated humans swept the surrounding area, seeking out any last, desperate hiding place where the enemy might yet remain.

They found none.

35 years ago, on December 9th, 1979, humanity declared victory.

This one evil, the horror from beyond memory, the monster that took 500 million people from this world – was destroyed.

You are a member of the species that did that. Never forget what we are capable of, when we band together and declare battle on what is broken in the world.

Happy Smallpox Eradication Day.


Tags:

#an increasingly bitter holiday as we head further into the 2020s #(also I dislike being called human) #but thank you‚ civilisation‚ for the knowledge and the tools that I needed to throw this starfish into the ocean #I still want that new orthopox vaccine though #Tumblr traditions #anniversaries #history #proud citizen of The Future #disappointed permanent resident of The Future #illness tw #transhumanism

cordeliaflyte:

My deepest darkest fantasy is that I collapse on the street and I am rushed to the hospital. They perform a bunch of tests and find out I am severely deficient in some kind of vitamin. Then I start taking the vitamin and I become the happiest cleverest person alive because all my problems were caused by this one deficiency


Tags:

#that one post with the thing #I have this fantasy but in a negative way #what if my problems are caused by things that are actually incredibly‚ stupidly easy to treat #what if I find out twenty years from now that a ten-dollar vitamin bottle from the grocery store would have fixed me #and I’ve been suffering for nothing #what if I *never* find out #(fun fact) #(last year they threw some things-in-the-general-vicinity-of-the-immune-system bloodwork at me) #(to see if anything turned up regarding the Immune Bullshit NOS) #(and the test for B12 deficiency pinged) #(to be clear I don’t think that’s what was causing the immune bullshit) #(I’ve been tested for B12 at least once before and it was fine then) #(I haven’t actually felt *anything* from the B12 supplements: it seems we caught it before it became symptomatic) #((…mind you‚ the one cold I’ve had since going on B12 was the second-mildest I’ve ever had‚ and I think within the normal-person range)) #((still‚ like I said‚ I’ve had okay B12 in the past)) #(but I’ve heard the horror stories of what happens if you *don’t* catch B12 deficiency early) #(and I wonder if there are other such traps in my path‚ that I have *not* discovered) #tag rambles #illness tw #medical cw #venting cw?

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rustingbridges:

a few years back zinc acetate lozenges were doing the rounds and I love a good superstition so I went ahead and incorporated that into my belief system. been a while so I thought I’d check to see if the state of the science on the subject had shifted since then

afaict there hasn’t been much work on the subject in the intervening time, and nothing much to change your mind one way or the other. good work everyone, you may return to your superstition behavior.

some details:

  • one study¹ recently reported a null result, but based on the going theory for zinc lozenges that’s what you would expect (zinc acetate was administered by capsules). also the study was lacking in other ways.
  • another² has a good looking graph and is maybe positive for the concept. haven’t read the fully study yet

that’s maybe about it? my method for researching this research was to search pubmed for “(zinc) AND ((acetate) OR (gluconate)) lozenge” plus some other words instead of lozenge, as there were too many results without an additional keyword for filtering. I am sure there are other places results are published besides pubmed. feel free to catapult relevant studies into my inbox

{{OP’s tags:

#1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37739466/ #2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8844493/ #links in tags because I think this evades the thing where tumblr refuses to show your post if it has links in it #idk if that actually works but as previously established I am a superstitious man }}

robustcornhusk:

a graph of cold duration in people treated with zinc lozenges vs placebo. notably, the longest colds in the placebo group were 19 days, versus "only" 12 days in the lozenge group.

i assume this is the promising-looking graph in question

you know, i don’t love the idea that colds get dragged out that long. 19 days? some poor assholes get colds for 19 days?

rustingbridges:

yeah that sounds fucked up! had no idea that was the case for some people, I always thought of a cold as a 1-3 day kind of thing. but presumably if someone gets 20 day colds they’re probably very glad to cut a week off that

brin-bellway:

The third week of a cold sucks a lot less than the first week so, like, maybe only as much as a normal person’s cold, but yeah if there’s a pill for cutting that third week off, I’m interested regardless of whether it helps with the main brunt of the cold. Gonna have to look into this.

rustingbridges:

the basic tenets of the going theory are this:

  • you want zinc acetate, or if that’s not available, zinc gluconate. it has to be a lozenge or otherwise dissolve in your mouth, since the theoretical method of action is coating some tissue or receptor or something with ionic zinc. preferably with as few additives as possible. if it doesn’t taste bad and feel astringent, it’s not working. in the US everyone buys the life extension ones. idk about elsewhere
  • it is ideal to start as soon as possible. preferably in the not-sure-if-im-actually-sick-yet phase. starting once the infection is well developed seems to be much less effective
  • tbh I will actually take one prophylactically if I feel like I was in a high exposure environment. this is a not the protocol the research was done on but it seems reasonable and as long I don’t do this every day it is at worst a bad tasting zinc supplement
  • iirc the studies mostly had a protocol along the lines of one lozenge (of varying size and type?) every 1.5-2 hours while awake until symptoms subside. that’s a lot. it seems to produce some effect in the studies. I do not know that anyone has done any real study on taking more or less to compare, so it’s unclear what the optimal amount is, or how long it is worthwhile to persist in taking them

Tags:

#conversational aglets #recs #is the blue I see the same as the blue you see #the power of science #illness tw


{{next post in sequence}}

rustingbridges:

robustcornhusk:

rustingbridges:

a few years back zinc acetate lozenges were doing the rounds and I love a good superstition so I went ahead and incorporated that into my belief system. been a while so I thought I’d check to see if the state of the science on the subject had shifted since then

afaict there hasn’t been much work on the subject in the intervening time, and nothing much to change your mind one way or the other. good work everyone, you may return to your superstition behavior.

some details:

  • one study¹ recently reported a null result, but based on the going theory for zinc lozenges that’s what you would expect (zinc acetate was administered by capsules). also the study was lacking in other ways.
  • another² has a good looking graph and is maybe positive for the concept. haven’t read the fully study yet

that’s maybe about it? my method for researching this research was to search pubmed for “(zinc) AND ((acetate) OR (gluconate)) lozenge” plus some other words instead of lozenge, as there were too many results without an additional keyword for filtering. I am sure there are other places results are published besides pubmed. feel free to catapult relevant studies into my inbox

{{OP’s tags:

#1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37739466/ #2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8844493/ #links in tags because I think this evades the thing where tumblr refuses to show your post if it has links in it #idk if that actually works but as previously established I am a superstitious man }}

8774ad8960e8bcf1d790581033791ade09040ada

i assume this is the promising-looking graph in question

you know, i don’t love the idea that colds get dragged out that long. 19 days? some poor assholes get colds for 19 days?

yeah that sounds fucked up! had no idea that was the case for some people, I always thought of a cold as a 1-3 day kind of thing. but presumably if someone gets 20 day colds they’re probably very glad to cut a week off that

The third week of a cold sucks a lot less than the first week so, like, maybe only as much as a normal person’s cold, but yeah if there’s a pill for cutting that third week off, I’m interested regardless of whether it helps with the main brunt of the cold. Gonna have to look into this.


Tags:

#I am very big on Simply Not Getting Sick in the First Place but it’s always good to have more layers in the Swiss cheese #especially when one of your housemates is a line cook #reply via reblog #the power of science #is the blue I see the same as the blue you see #illness tw


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wolffyluna:

Today is the 169th anniversary of the removal of the Broad Street Pump handle.

In September of 1854, a cholera outbreak in London occurred, killing 616 people. Pioneering epidemiologist and anaesthisiologist worked to prove that the outbreak was caused by contaminated water and not miasma/“bad air.” He was able to trace the source of infection to the Broad Street well, and while the local parish authorities were doubtful, he managed to convince them to remove the handle from the pump, preventing people from drawing water from it.

On this day, pour out a non-alcoholic one for teetotaller John Snow, consider what models you believe in that may be flawed, thank a plumber, and if you can, give money to charity help more people have access to clean water.


Tags:

#history #anniversaries #illness tw #unsanitary cw #this post was queued to ensure proper timing

groundlessness:

Whenever I get a puncture wound I feel so smug towards any tetanus that might be in there. They have no idea about my sick ass vaccinated immune system. While you were crawling in soil my cells were studying Tdap. Now die by the hands of my learnéd warriors.


Tags:

#proud citizen of The Future #vaccines #illness tw #this probably deserves some other warning tag but I am not sure what

random-thought-depository:

A TV channel in my area plays Star Trek TOS episodes on Saturday night, last week’s episode was the one about how the writers were scared of hippies lol.

Anyway, in the episode they go the anvilicious route of making all the plants on that planet incredibly poisonous (and the hippies I guess too technophobic to wave a tricorder over a bush before deciding they want to settle there), but before they found out about that there was a line about the planet having no animals and, wait, even if the biochemistries were compatible, wouldn’t a planet with no animals logically be pretty difficult for humans to survive on, especially if the humans are going to go full anprim and live as gatherers?

Obviously getting enough protein might be a problem. And I think there’s some vitamin you can only get from animals? You only need tiny amounts of it IIRC, small enough that preindustrial vegetarian Jains were able to get enough from insect contamination in their food, but on a planet with no animals at all that would be a huge problem!

But also, no animals would logically mean no fruit, right? Fruit exist to entice animals to move a plant’s seeds around for it. If there’s no animals, there’s no reason for plants to expend energy on growing them. Plants on a planet with no animals would probably mostly propagate by wind-blown seeds, and have seeds similar to dandelion fluff, small and very light to easily disperse in the wind.

That basically leaves tubers. Which probably would exist; they might be even more useful on a planet where there are no animals to plunder such rich stores of energy (though I guess there’d probably be parasitic fungi and stuff evolved to exploit them). On the other hand, on a planet with no browsers or grazers the main selection pressures driving the evolution of tubers would be winter, drought, and fire, so if “Eden” has a nice climate it might not have a lot of tubers either.

I don’t think it’d look nice and pretty and park-like like the planet in the episode either. For one thing, I think, just like it has no fruit, it’d have no flowers except things similar to dandelion puffs; there’d be nothing to pollinate them. With no animals with eyes, there’d be no reason for plants to evolve parts with dramatic color contrast. Its vegetation would be rather visually monotonous, mostly greens and browns. But also, and more importantly in terms of its potential (or lack of thereof) for human habitation, that kind of lush but open park-like landscape is what you get when vegetation is being regularly pruned back by people or animals or fire or some combination of those things. I think a planet with no animals would have very different vegetation growth patterns, more like…

In areas dry enough for burning seasons, I think you might get a fire-adapted ecology where fire does some of what grazers and browsers do on Earth. With no grazers and browsers and the main selection pressure being competition between plants, you’d get a dense tangled profusion of growth and lots of slowly decomposing dead plant material (cause there’s no animals to help break it down or prune the leaves before they get a chance to die and fall off, just bacteria and fungi). It’d probably be rather difficult for a human to walk through, a forest choked with a dense profusion of undergrowth and dead stuff; at least there are no thorns, and nothing like poison oak; with no animals there’s no selection pressure for thorns or poison. In dry parts of the year, this accumulation of living and dead plant material becomes a tinderbox for wildfires. If a planet like this looks idyllic from orbit, it’s cause you arrived in mid-spring/mid-autumn; come in summer/winter, when dry seasons are in full swing, and you would see huge wildfires and skies stained with smoke. The oldest and biggest trees are tough enough to usually survive the burning, but the undergrowth is cleared. After the burn, seeds sprout and saplings grow quickly, competing to take advantage of the cleared ground, quickly filling the forest back up with a tangled profusion of growth and an increasing accumulation of slowly rotting dead material, completing the cycle.

On the other hand, on the same planet, in the places with lots of rain and conditions favorable to evergreen plants, there might be forests of enormous trees with forest floors that are pretty open but rather dark, barren, and muddy, with most light being blocked by a dense cathedral-like canopy far above. They’d smell of mud and rot, as the forest floor has accumulated large amounts of slowly decomposing leaf litter fallen from the canopy far above and has a mostly decomposer-based ecology of fungi and bacteria that slowly feeds on that. This is an ecosystem of trees and rot, and the trees make no fruit, they reproduce by seeds like dandelion fluff, small and very light to float on the wind, and they don’t even produce much of that; they live a very long time and reproduce very slowly, partially because they’re Cronuses; their dense canopy starves their own offspring of light along with everything else. For all the green lushness of their canopies these forests are low-energy ecosystems, conservative ecosystems, defined by the almost total victory of ancient, mighty incumbents; these are the Cronus forests, the lands of the Cronus trees.

There’s very little energy available to humans in these Cronus woods. Some edible mushrooms, maybe; that’d be about it. Very possibly humans simply could not survive here, except perhaps in tiny numbers and by living in almost hermit-like isolation and dispersal. The Cronus forests might be almost as hostile as the Sahara or Antarctica, a place where the likely fate of some unfortunate stranded human explorer would be to die of hunger lying on the roots of some sequoia-size Cronus tree that was ancient when Julius Caesar marched into Gaul, staring up into cathedral-like dense green canopy through which only a dim twilight illumination filters even at mid-day, their nose filled with the reek of mud and rot.

Humans might try to terraform the Cronus forests by opening them, but I think that might be quite difficult for low-tech humans. The obvious efficient strategy for attacking the Cronus trees would be to set fire to them, but fire would be one of the primary natural threats to the Cronus trees, and a strong selection pressure on them, so I expect them to be well-adapted to resist it, with fire-retardant chemicals in their bark, wood, sap, and leaves so they resist ignition, and with their sheer size protecting them. The floors of the Cronus woods would receive almost no direct sunlight and therefore be cool and probably damp, and they would have very little undergrowth; fire would probably not spread easily through such an environment. It might be more effective to set torch to the canopies, but they would be dozens or maybe even hundreds of meters above the ground; quite a climb, on a tree that’s probably more-or-less a branchless trunk much of the way up, and you’ve got to climb back down after setting the tree on fire.

That leaves tediously timbering them one by one. With, say, Medieval technology, this might work! The Cronus trees look mighty and their rule assured, but they are actually quite vulnerable. They are slow. Their defenses are purely passive. They literally could not make a single motion to defend themselves as an enemy attacked them with steel saws and axes. And they reproduce very slowly; if they could be timbered efficiently, it would be easy to destroy them faster than they reproduce. An enemy that can think and move is an outside context problem for them, something that never existed in their environment and therefore something they are totally unprepared for. Humans with steel saws and axes might be very efficient killers of these ancient titans.

But steel axes are pretty high-tech if you think agriculture was a mistake. Without metal tools? Imagine trying to bring down a giant sequoia without metal tools, so the axe is something delicate like obsidian or bone, or it has to be very tediously ground to a blade, or you’re basically trying to bring the (big and structurally strong!) tree down by bashing it to a pulp, and big saws are probably impossible. Now imagine having to do that over and over again. Imagine trying to clear a forest that stretches from horizon to horizon that way.

If very low-tech humans can inhabit the Cronus forests at all, I think it might be as, like, highly dispersed small families who move around constantly and rarely meet each other, living on the occasional patch of edible mushrooms or other tid-bit, cause there just isn’t enough energy to support anything denser. And even then, they might have to stick to the edge, where other ecozones are accessible, cause, like, would mushrooms even have all the nutrients you need?

I mean, I guess there would be some kind of open woodland areas? I think a planet with no animals would have more forest than a more Earth-like planet with the same climate, cause you’ve removed a major inhibition on plant growth. Think of how places like highland Scotland used to be forested, but when humans with livestock were added to the mix it became more-or-less an open grassland landscape. I think you’d see a similar effect comparing Plantworld to a version of the same planet that had animals; places that would be marginally viable forest without browsers would be grassland or open woodland with them. But a planet with no animals is probably going to have areas wet enough for plants but too dry for forests, so it’ll probably have some grassland equivalents. But…

… Grass in natural prairies often gets pretty tall, doesn’t it? And that’s with grazers. A grass-equivalent that evolved on a world without grazers would be more selected by competition against other plants. I think no selection by grazing but more selection by competition against other plants might favor more investment in individual stalks. And instead of looking like our grass, these plants would have a cluster of little branches and leaves at the top, for better light interception – and to shade and thus inhibit the growth of any rivals growing near their base!

So, maybe… The experience of walking in a grassland in no animals world is very different from walking through a lawn or even the kind of knee-high or less wild grass I see around the Bay Area. The grass is tall. It’s taller than you. The stalks are thick too; finger-thick and hollow; it’s more like a forest of young bamboo. It feels more like walking in a cornfield. And it’s surprisingly dark. Each stalk has a little crown of small branches and leaves, and together they make a surprisingly dense canopy not far above your head. The effect is claustrophobic and eerie. It has a vibe a little like the Cronus woods. And that’s not an accident; these plants are essentially much smaller versions of the Cronus trees; tighter constraints, similar strategy. This place replicates the Cronus woods in miniature. This is the Cronus prairie, the land of the Cronus grass.

This probably doesn’t sound like a place you’d like. If it’s any consolation, if the Cronus grasses had minds they probably wouldn’t like you either. Unlike the Cronus trees, the Cronus grass is small and vulnerable enough to experience you, fast-moving muscles-having thing, as the outside context problem you are on its world. You move through the Cronus grass and break a stalk. What a calamity to that plant! All the energy and resources it poured into building that stalk, all that work, the work of its life, undone in an instant! Now it has no crown to drink the sun, and its luckier neighboring competitors will close over it, and it will die without ever having a chance to scatter its gossamer seeds on the wind. Or maybe it’s a different, longer-lived sort of Cronus grass (Cronus grass and Cronus tree aren’t species, they’re strategies and niches), and in the soil below the base of the stalk, where the long-lived part of the plant lives, there is a tuber, from which it can pull stored energy to regenerate the stalk, but this only prolongs the failure cycle; that energy was supposed to be used to regenerate the stalk after the Cronus prairie burns in the dry season and is reduced to a horizon-to-horizon smoldering plain of bare earth and ash; now its energy stores will be depleted when the fire comes, and afterward it will not be able to keep pace with the growth and regeneration of its neighbors and rivals, and they will close over it and it will die.

Those tubers make the Cronus prairie the best place on this planet for humans to live. Some of the Cronus grasses are annuals and live only one year, dying in the fires of the dry season and leaving only seeds to continue their lineage, but many are long-lived, with root systems that survive the fires, and these all have tubers that store energy to regenerate their stalk after the burn. In the competitive scramble after the burn the advantage offered by such a pre-existing storehouse of caloric wealth is huge, and these plants evolved in the absence of any animals that might raid them. Think of the Cronus prairie as a vast field of turnips and potatoes, with multiple edible plants in every square foot of soil, stretching from horizon to horizon. Here, at last, is something like the promise of Eden; food provided abundantly by nature with no need to work the soil, simply waiting to be dug up, available in such quantity that there would be little motivation for hard toil or war. That is, if you don’t mind a monotonous diet of bland and nutrient-poor tubers, every day, every year, almost every meal, from the day you are weaned to the day you die. Low-tech human inhabitants of the Cronus prairie would have plenty of calories, but getting enough protein and other nutrients to stay alive and healthy might be a very hard struggle for them, and they might often suffer from malnutrition.

The abundance of the Cronus prairie would also be fragile. The tuber-growing Cronus grasses are long-lived and reproduce slowly, and digging up the tuber would probably destroy one. All the defenses they use to protect their precious hordes of carbohydrates are against enemies as slow as themselves, bacteria and fungi and specialized “vampire plants” without chlorophyll; they are not evolved to deal with raiders with muscles and eyes who can simply physically dig up the tubers. It would be quite easy for humans to slip into harvesting them faster than they reproduce.

Imagine what life might be like for a low-tech inhabitant of the Cronus prairie, a few hundred or a few thousand years after establishment.

Your staple food is something like turnip soup (the stalks of the Cronus grass furnish the fuel for cooking). No animals in your world have yet developed the ability to breathe on land, but there are things a little like insects you can find in creeks and rivers; they are enough to supply your people with the nutrients you absolutely must get from animals. Your people wean your babies late, because mother’s milk is one of the precious few foods available to you that is not Cronus grass tubers and is much more nourishing. You’ve learned to feed your children small amounts of human feces to establish the gut microbiomes they need to process food. Finding enough food that isn’t Cronus grass tubers to get all the nutrients you need is a struggle, but you know if you eat only Cronus grass tubers you will get sick and die slowly. In fact, your people are chronically malnourished and chronically ill, but you live long and most of your children grow up anyway, because your world has few bacteria and viruses capable of infecting humans, so your immune systems don’t have to be very strong. In a desperate measure to increase protein consumption, your people have incorporated cannibalism of the deceased into your funeral rituals (your people view the practice as loving and reverential and normal, not desperate; it is done only to people who have already died of natural causes and allows their flesh to still be part of the tribe while their bones are shallowly buried to nourish the Cronus grass). Water bugs and human flesh are the only meats you’ve ever tasted. It is the beginning of the dry season, and the sky is stained with high-altitude smoke from the vast wildfires already burning hundreds of kilometers to the north. Soon your people must move northwest to the island of barren rock that rises from the Cronus prairie or southwest to the Cronus woods; there is little food in those places, but the fire stops at their boundaries, and to be caught out in the Cronus prairie when the fire walks across it is death.

You know, if you’re going with “hippies have an overly romanticized view of nature and therefore don’t deal with it well,” I think I’d kind of prefer this. Just making the plants on “Eden” super-poisonous is just kind of an arbitrary fuck you, but… “Planet with no animals and sufficient abundance that you can survive as a gatherer without much effort” is totally something I could see as a hippie fantasy; no need for hard toil or alienating technology, little temptation toward war, no dangerous animals that might hurt you, and no temptation toward carnivory. But it’s an ecologically incoherent fantasy! You are also an animal! A world with no place for animals has no place for you! It will probably not be an easy world for you to survive on! Of course, it’d be difficult to portray this in a one hour TV episode; would probably work a lot better with a novel.

Also, you could flip this around: if you think about it, it’s actually really weird that a planet with no animals has fruit (even super-poisonous fruit). Maybe it’s not a natural wilderness. Maybe it’s somebody’s food forest.

Suggestion: “Eden” is actually a heavily gardened world maintained by one of those state-repelling cultures James C. Scott talks about. Its inhabitants are not humanoid and have totally different biochemistry from us, so the local food’s perfectly edible, palatable, and nourishing to them. They mostly live as gatherers at a low level technology, doing the sort of proto-agricultural ecosystem engineering lots of hunter-gatherers do on Earth. They maintain just enough technology to tell them when a starship is dropping by. When that happens, they crawl into little hidey-holes and go into a deep hibernation, which makes starship sensors not register them as alive. They come out of hibernation a few days later or something, which is usually enough time for visitors with more galactic-normal biochemistry to realize the plants on the planet are poisonous to them, lose interest in it, and leave.

Something something people who reject the value system of settler colonial society but don’t reject the terra nullius myth.

Also, I might use these ideas for a planet in my own sci fi, cause it has a premise that easily lends itself to such a scenario happening somewhere in it.


Tags:

#Star Trek #story ideas I will never write #food #illness tw #death tw #apocalypse cw #poison cw? #this post was queued because my to-reblog list is too long and I didn’t want to dump it on you all at once

gallusrostromegalus:

gallusrostromegalus:

My friend’s kid gave me pinkeye and I have been on a particularly fuckt up sleep schedule about it and dreamed an entire Italian Opera on the themes of heaven and hell and the power of love and recognition of the self in other and the tragedy of loving the idea of something rather than the thing itself and the dream ended with the phrase “-And then it was banned EVERYWHERE.”

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The plot starts off with a hybrid of Cinderella and the Taming Of The Shrew where a woman with her own daughter marries a Duke who has an older daughter, and then the Duke dies under “Mysterious circumstances”.

But he leaves in his will that his fortune won’t be disbursed until his daughter (the elder one) marries.

The elder daughter (like, 20ish?) is refusing to get married because her step-mother is trying to set her step-sister (age 12) with IDK A Medieval Italian supreme court judge?? (Age 65) , but the marriage can’t go through until the Duke’s fortune disburses and the mother can pay the dowry.

Other thing about the Eldest Daughter: She Always Speaks The Truth. Not only does she refuse to lie, but kind of like a retroactive Cassandra, everything she says is True. As you can imagine, this is not terribly popular In Fantasy Medieval Italian High Society.

The mother, big mad about being stuck with this stubborn, awkward girl, gets a Lawyer and a Bishop and a bunch of other authority figures to modify the will so that “Should the plague take my eldest, we will not be bereft *wink*” AKA if the eldest just dies or disappears without getting married, the mother will get the money anyway.
(They all know she’s going to kill the girl, but they’re getting a cut.)
The Step-Mother then, in true operatic fashion of Going Way Too Hard tortures the Elder daughter, and locks her in the basement to bleed out and die.

There, in the darkness, abandoned by God and the Law and Family etc. the daughter turns to the last thing she has left.

BLACK MAGIC

(Come on, it’s Opera. Everybody knows Black Magic)

Keep reading

{{below the cut:}}

So she summons a Demon
As One Does.

He appears to her in the darkness- And is immediately terrified and transfixed because even though it’s totally dark, she’s looking right at, and through him, and Can See Him Exactly As He Is.

Which is Spooky, because he’s been having some serious self-esteem issues lately- Demon has his own problems, you see- He’s a Prince of Hell and thus he’s the victim of Hellish Politics and beset by all his fellow demons. And he’s Terrible at machinations and scheming because he too feels an attachment to The Truth and it’s making him feel Demonically Inadequate, even if he’s got the Wrath and Violence part down pat.
…So He’s been lurking on the material plane to get away from it all and been watching her suffering, because he too feels the kinship of being betrayed and hunted by all that ought love him and telling The Truth no matter how easy it would be to lie.

So now, here he is in the darkness, and his crush is looking RIGHT AT HIM and he’s genuinely frightened because he’s never cared about someone’s opinion of him before.

His aria about this is pretty great, but THEN:

She reaches out to him and says

There is something wrong with you
There is something wrong with you that is also wrong with me
What is this kinship I feel with you? The affliction grants you Grace and Beauty, and leaves me a Hobbling wretch
Yet I believe we share some kinship- I know the fear in your eyes, for I see it in every mir
ror”

(I know the first two lines are from a poem in Mirror Traps by Hera Lindsay Bird, but this is what my eye-pain-delerium brain supplied me with)

He goes down on one knee in front of her and promises to do anything she wishes- He’s seen how she suffers and If he cannot have his own recompense, he will have hers-
-For what price?
You are wise, and I am weary- I am a Demon and there is but one currency we trade in. Give me your soul, and I will give you everything you desire.
She thinks about it for a bit, and he makes every offer he can- I will torture your stepmother as she tortured you! The Judge lusting after your sister? I’ll make his dick explode! That bishop that has his head up his ass- I’ll make him shove it up there so far he turns inside-out!

-Love me. She says. The suffering of others will do nothing to ease my own, though some bitter part of my would thrill to see it. Love me, Truly love me as neither of us have been but deserved, and my soul will be yours.

…If I were to Truly Love you, then my soul would be yours.

-Would that be such a terrible thing?

…It would not. He says, and promptly spirits her off to his palace in hell, and explains his situation as he tends to her.

{{archivist’s note: the next paragraph is in a larger font size and a fancy cursive font}}

[At this point my brain extensively hallucinated some real smutty hurt/comfort, because I am hurting and need the comfort]

Once they understand each other, they decide to do a strangers on a train-

He goes to Earth where the mother is planning to marry the younger daughter off to the creepy old judge and tricks everyone into betraying everyone else in disguise as a simple manservant, and spirits the younger daughter away back to Hell to play with Hellhound puppies all while making sure he Never Tells A Single Lie, because it’s not a sin for a demon to be honest- it’s a demonstration of his Mastery that he doesn’t NEED to.

Meanwhile, She goes to the royal court of Hell and goes around to all the Demons and tells them The Truth about themselves, which they can’t stand as all their power is based on a sense of self-importance and secret rules that don’t actually have anything to do with reality. After losing most of their power to The Divine Wrath Of Autsim, they scamper off to Earth to get more power from their humans, who are all in a tizzy because there’s some kind of political thing going on, and the Elder Daughter and the Demon play off each other’s work to get everyone ready to fuck up each other’s shit.

(This part of the dream got muddy because Actual Plot is something I have to do while conscious and I’m not doing more than I have to until my eye stops trying to to persuade me to gouge it out with a spoon)

ANYWAY, The Final Act is the Big Wedding where all the Humans are plotting to murder each other and the Demons are all shriveled up little creatures and The Daughter and The Demon Prince turn up and reveal it was them all along and that ALL of you suck and have also ruined each other- the Judge has gotten the lawyer disbarred, the Lawyer had gotten the Bishop caught committing fraud, the Bishop has gotten the judge excommunicated and ALL the mother’s friends and allies are broke and their careers are dead and now that they have no social agency, they can’t hurt anyone anymore.

And then the caterer steps forward and reveals that He’s Actual For Real God, and he is SO PROUD of the daughter and the demon for stopping this corrupt fracas without violence or lying! The shriveled demons are Human Souls that had been cast into hell to atone but weren’t learning the lesson, and the humans are headed that way unless they really get their shit together.

The demon prince remarks that it’s odd that God would be pleased with the work of a demon.

What Demon? Says the Daughter, who always says the truth.

Yeah what Demon? Laughs God. You’re one of my Best Angels, who oversees the rehabilitation of the wicked. You looked like you were getting overwhelmed though, so I found this Paragon of Truth for you. And you Paragon looked like you were in need of help so I found this Angel for you! Now, is someone getting married today or are we just gonna let this cake go to waste?

God marries them, there’s a big party and The All Live Happily Ever After as the King and Queen of Hell, and her sister gets big into Demonic Dog Breeding.

and then I explicitly dreamed the voice of some art historian saying “-And then it got banned EVERYWHERE.”


Tags:

#storytime #dreams #demons #illness tw #murder cw #this post was queued because my to-reblog list is too long and I didn’t want to dump it on you all at once